與淨空法師一席談［Malaysia］Abstracts from TV Broadcast A Talk with Venerable Master Chin Kung Translation

Source: http://sites.google.com/site/solvemalaysiaandworldcrisis/abstract/malaysia-tv-talkwithvenerablemasterchinkung-translation

Original Source: http://blog.udn.com/charlie999/7441276

與淨空法師一席談(翻譯)-1

此文乃本人老闆之義務翻譯成果之一。老闆每於交稿後，即將之刪除，實為可惜。故特將之保存，已饗有緣者。 

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主持人：晚上好，歡迎來到「與淨空法師一席談」的節目現場，我是陳嘉榮。

Anchor:  Good evening. Welcome to “Chat Time (A Dialogue) with Venerable Master Chin Kung.” This is Jiarong Chan.

我們生活在一個自由開放的年代，隨著地球村的概念應運而生，人與人之間的距離是愈來愈近了。各族群之間的傳統文化、意識形態和生活方式等等，都會出現許多的矛盾和衝突，我們該如何消除？今天在我們節目現場就很高興，同時也很難得，能夠邀請到淨空法師來到我們節目現場，淨空法師您好！

Nowadays, we live in an Era of great freedom and openness.  With the rise of the concept of“global village,” the distance between people is getting closer and closer. The traditions, cultures, ideologies, and living styles of different ethnic groups have generated many confrontations and conflicts [in multi-cultural communities].  How should we eliminate them?  Today we are very glad as well as appreciative of this rare opportunity to be able to invite V. M. Chin Kung to our program. Good evening Venerable Master Chin Kung.

淨空法師：謝謝。

Ven. Maser： Thank you!

主持人：今天節目現場，除了有淨空法師之外，我們還有三位嘉賓來到現場，待會會向淨空法師提出他們的疑問，請淨空法師來開示。他們分別就是，光華日報總編輯胡錦昌先生。

Anchor:  Today, besides Venerable Master Chin Kung, we also have three honorable guests, who will ask V. M. Chin Kung questions and for his elucidation.  Our first guest is Mr. Jingchang Hu, Chief Editor of Kwong Wah Daily.

胡錦昌：阿彌陀佛。

Hu Jingchang: Amitabha Buddha.

主持人：胡先生也是皈依在淨空法師門下。我們另外的一位媒體人是新中日報副總編輯曾玉林先生。

Anchor: Mr. Hu has taken refuge in Buddhism and Venerable Master Chin Kung is his teacher. Another guest from the media industry is Mr. Yulin Zeng, Deputy Editor in Chief of Sin Chew Daily.

曾玉林：好，大家好。

Zeng Yulin:  Greetings, everyone.

主持人：玉林也是對佛法非常非常有興趣的一位媒體人。再來，我們有東方日報的副編輯、主任，他就是藍志峰先生，他是一個對社會觀察非常犀利的一位媒體人。感謝三位到我們現場。

Anchor: Yulin is media person who is very, very interested in Buddhism.  Finally, we have the Deputy Editor in Chief and Director of Oriental Daily News, Mr. Zhifung Lan.  He is a perspicacious (shrewd, keen, discerning) social observer in the media circle.  Thank you all for coming.

節目一開始，我想問我們的淨空法師。我們知道淨空法師，他常常到世界各地去做講經和教學，也常常到我們馬來西亞。對於推動各族群、各宗教的融合，還有和諧，盡了非常大的力量，也貢獻非常多。我想問淨空法師，對於我們馬來西亞這樣的一個多元文化、多元種族和多元宗教的這樣的一個社會，我們該如何達到向上和向善的這樣的一個社會？

I’d like to start the program by first asking Venerable Master Chin Kung some questions.  As we know, Venerable Master Chin Kung often gives lectures around the world, and has visited Malaysia many times.  He has contributed tremendously to the promotion of harmonious integration of different races and religions.  I’d like to ask the Venerable Master how can Malaysia, an ethnically diversified society with multi-faith and multi-cultures, become a society motivated by uprightness and virtues?

淨空法師：我記得，我跟首相第一次見面的時候，他就問我一個問題，他說我很想把馬來西亞治理得好，有什麼方法？我當時回答他，只要把教育辦好了，所有問題都解決了。今天社會搞成這個樣子，它的根本原因是教育發生問題，所以只要把教育上軌道，問題都可以解決。

V.M. Chin Kung:  I remember the first time I met with the Prime Minister, he asked me a question. He stated that “I would like to govern Malaysia well.  Do you have any method to recommend?” My answer for him at that time was: “All problems will be solved if you provide good education for your people.”  The social chaos of Today originates from problematic education. So long as education is on the right track, all problems can be solved.

主持人：在教育上，我想是任何一個國家，任何一個領導都非常重視的一環。對於一個多元民族，或者是多元文化的一個社會裡面，推動教育，我想它的一個重要目的是讓每個人都成為一個好人。

Anchor: With respect to education, I think that any country, any leader would put great emphasis on this issue.  With respect to a multi-race or a multi-cultural society, to promote education, I think that one of its important goals is to let everyone become a good person.

淨空法師：對。

V. M. Chin Kung: That’s right.

主持人：但是我們看到好像知易行難，很多時候都不能做到，問題出現在哪裡？

Anchor:  However, we have observed that it is easier said than done. Many times we cannot accomplish this goal.  What is the problem?

淨空法師：問題出現在教育的內容跟方法。東方，傳統的教育，受中國影響很深，因為這是個大國。東南亞一帶，都是與中國傳統文化有很深的淵源，尤其鄭和六次下西洋，都在馬六甲住過。所以他是一個伊斯蘭回教信徒，同時也是佛教的信徒。他本身是回族家庭出身，但是他的老闆永樂大帝是虔誠的佛教徒。所以，他對於這兩個宗教的融合，做得非常之好。他所帶到南洋的，像爪哇的佛教，他傳的，就很柔和，有中國儒、佛的理念在裡頭。蘇門答臘是從歐洲傳，那就不一樣，很明顯能看得出來。我們在馬來西亞這個地方受鄭和影響很深，馬六甲每一條街，好像都有鄭和廟，這個是連首相納吉也都非常讚歎。

V. M. Chin Kung:  The problem lies in the contents and methods of the education system.  In the Orient, the traditional education was greatly influenced by China because it was a powerful country in the past.  Cultures in Southeast Asia had a deep connection with the traditional Chinese culture.  This is especially due to the influence of Zheng He (1371–1433).  Zheng stayed in Malacca during his six voyages on the Pacific Ocean.  Zheng was a Muslim and a Buddhist at the same time.  He was born into a Muslim family, but his boss, Emperor Yongle (reigned from 1399 to 1422) was a devoted Buddhist. He integrated the two faiths very well.  For example, the Islam transmitted by Zheng in the Java Island was very lenient, amalgamating both Confucianism and Buddhism. The Islam in the Sumatra Island, however, propagated by Europeans, demonstrated a sharp contrast from Zheng’s Islamic practices. Zheng was also very influential in Malaysia.  Almost every street in Malacca has a San Bao Temple to commemorate Zheng (San Bao was Zheng’s first name). This phenomenon has also been praised by Prime Minister Najib.

所以中國的教學，是教人做好人，是教人做聖人、做賢人，聖賢教育。它不是自私自利的，不是以個人名利為出發點。所以這種教育能夠推動的話，世界和諧可以能夠做到。

So, the traditional Chinese education is to teach a person to become a good person, a gentleman, a sage, and finally a saint.  It is not motivated by selfishness, for personal gain or fame.  If this kind of education can be promoted, a harmonious world can be realized.

主持人：我知道淨空法師一直提倡要有一個和諧的社會，我們也知道淨宗學會常常會推動《弟子規》，還有像《十善業道經》等等這樣的一個教學。這些都是關係到我們華人的傳統文化，傳統文化在一個社會和諧的這個進程當中，它扮演怎樣一個角色？

Anchor: I know that V.M. Chin Kung has been steadfastly advocating a harmonious society. We also know that the Pure Land Association often promotes the teachings of the sages such as Di Zi Gui(Standards for Being a Good Student and Child), The Ten Virtuous Karmas Sutra, etc.  These teachings are all associated with traditional Chinese culture.  What role does the traditional Chinese culture play in the process of building a harmonious society?

淨空法師：華人文化，在上一個世紀，一九七０年代，英國湯恩比博士說得非常好，他說「解決二十一世紀社會問題，只有中國孔孟學說跟大乘佛法」。大乘佛法也在中國。這句話講得非常非常有道理，但是一般人也是疏忽了，我想疏忽的原因多半是解讀錯誤。

V. M. Chin Kung:  As for [the role] of Chinese culture, in the last century, during the 1970’s, Dr. Arnold Toynbee put it well by saying that “only the teachings of Confucius and Mencius, and Mahayana Buddhism can solve the social problems of the 21st century.”  Mahayana Buddhism is practiced in China.  Dr. Toynbee’s comment is a truism but ignored by the public.  I think, the reason for such neglect was greatly due to misinterpretation. 

這樁事情，我曾經，二００五年、０六年訪問倫敦，倫敦是歐洲漢學中心，他們的一批學生研究中國儒釋道，他能夠讀中國書的原本，參考古代的這些資料，我看到非常驚訝。我請教他們，我說你們中國文言文學了多久？告訴我，三年。這不難，三年能夠學得那麼好，所以讓我感到很驚訝。

I mentioned this matter, in 2005, or 2006, during my visit to London, the center of Sinology in Europe.   There, a number of graduate students, studying Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism, can read the original ancient Chinese text as research material; to my great surprise.  I politely asked them how long did it take for them to learn the classical Chinese.  They told me: “Three years.”  It is not difficult [to learn Chinese for three years], but to learn it so well [as to be able to read classical Chinese] gave me a great surprise.

我就向他請教：湯恩比的話，這你們英國人，你們相信嗎？他們對著我笑，不回答我。我等了幾分鐘，沒有答應的。我反過來說，難道湯恩比說錯了嗎？他也不回答。最後我說你們很聰明，既不贊成，也不反對。

I then politely asked them: “As an Englishman, do you believe in the comment made by Dr. Toynbee?”  They smiled at me but did not answer me.  I waited for several minutes and still without any answer.  Then I asked the opposite question: “Is Dr. Toynbee wrong?”  Again, no one answered. Finally, I said: “You are all very clever, neither agree nor disagree.”

我說，你要問我怎麼看法，我說湯恩比的話說得非常好，說得正確。什麼原因？你們今天解讀有問題。提到孔孟學說，一定想到四書五經、十三經，他都點頭；說到大乘，一定《華嚴》、《法華》、《般若》這些大經大論，都點頭。這些東西你們在研究，你們拿這個寫博士論文，我說今天社會這個亂象沒法子解決，儒也不能解決，道也不能解決。

I said that if you asked my opinion, I would say that Dr. Toynbee’s comment was great and with precision.  Why?  You cannot answer my questions because your misinterpreted [Confucianism and Mahayana Buddhism].  Today, when anyone mentions “Confucianism” the first thing that comes to mind is the Confucian cannons, such as the Four Books, Five Classics, and the Thirteen Classics.  They all nodded.  If the word “Mahayana Buddhism” is mentioned, people would think of the great sutras such asAvatamsaka Sutra, The Lotus Sutra and Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra.  They nodded again.  All these Cannons and Sutras are for the erudite academics.  You study them for research, for your doctoral degrees.  [To learn Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism this way,] I said, none of them can solve the chaotic situation of Today’s society.

我說這些東西是儒跟佛的花果，這是最上層的東西，現在底下得的病，這上頭東西解決不了。那你有沒有想到，這花果從哪來的？花從枝生的，枝從條生的，條從幹生的，幹從本生的，本從根生的，你們有沒有想到這個？沒想到。

I explained that these sutras and cannons are the flowers and fruits, or the pinnacles, of Confucianism and Buddhism.  But the root of the fruit tree, or the bottom level, is ill.  The flowers and the fruits cannot cure the illness in the root.  I asked them: “Have you ever thought about where do the flowers and the fruits come from? The flowers come from the branches, the branches come from the stem, and the stem comes from the root.  Have you ever ponder on this point?  I guess not.”
-------Source: http://blog.udn.com/charlie999/7441284
與淨空法師一席談(翻譯)-2

我說孔孟的根是什麼？大乘的根是什麼？你要知道這個，現在學會管用。儒的根是什麼？《弟子規》，沒有人想到。道的根，《太上感應篇》；佛的根，《十善業道》。這麼小的東西，沒有一個人重視到它，那真能解決現在社會問題。你要把這樣的三樣東西推廣、落實，人心馬上變成善良。

Then I said: “What is the root of Confucianism? What is the root of Buddhism?  You must know them.  It would still be useful to learn them now.”  So, what serves as the root of Confucianism?  Di Zi Gui (Standards for Being a Good Student and Child).  Likewise, the Account of Request and Responseserves as the basic of Taoist education; and for Buddhism, it is The Ten Virtuous Karmas Sutra. These three fundamental teachings are very simple, but no one pays attention to them.  They can truly solve Today’s social problems.  If these three fundamental texts are promoted and practiced, human minds will become kind and virtuous immediately.

我去年十一月訪問斯里蘭卡，讓我大吃一驚。斯里蘭卡是小乘佛教國家，它做到了，全民推動，它落實在生活，落實在工作，落實在處事待人接物，我說沒有想到地球上還有這麼一個國家。

Last November, I visited Sri Lanka, a country of Theravada Buddhism.  To my astonishment, all the people in Sri Lankan actualized the Buddha’s teachings in every aspect of their lives, in the way they work, in the way they treat people and things.  I did not expect to find such a country on Earth.

我說我們現在到處聽的講佛，儒釋道，都是口頭上的，不起作用；到你家來看，怎麼你們都做到了！所以這讓我看到，這個世界上真的有一線光明，有希望。總統心量很大，對我也很客氣，能夠包容大乘。不但能包容大乘，能夠包容世界上所有的宗教，這很了不起。

 Nowadays, we hear talks about Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism everywhere.  But they are just empty words without any use or effect.  But people in Sri Lanka put them into action!  I came, I saw, and I see a sliver of light in this world!  There is hope.  The President [of Sri Lanka] is very broad-minded.  He treated me politely, showing his willingness to encompass Mahayana Buddhism.  Not only Mahayana Buddhism, but he is also tolerant of every faith in the world.  This is magnificent.

主持人：對一個和諧社會，包容心是很重要的。

Anchor: Tolerance is very important to social harmony.

淨空法師：對，非常非常重要。他就肯幹。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes, very important.  He is willing to do so.

主持人：也但願說，我們世界上每一個族群都有這種包容心。

Anchor:  We also hope that every race in the world has this kind of tolerance.

淨空法師：對，包容心。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes, a tolerant mind.

主持人：可是我們現在看到好多年輕人，對於傳統文化的疏離感愈來愈強了。

Anchor:  However, we see a lot of youngsters nowadays feel more and more alienated from traditional culture. 

淨空法師：對，沒錯。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes, they do.

主持人：再加上科技的一個影響，我們網絡世界儼然已經成為了一個虛擬的社會。

Anchor: With the additional influence of technology, the internet has fabricated a cyber-society.

淨空法師：對。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes.

主持人：在這社會裡面，大家很自由，很多時候可能就少了一點所謂的正義，或者少了一些比較做人的道理在裡頭。

Anchor: In a society, when we have more freedom, relatively, we may have less the so-called righteousness (justice), or comparatively, less humanity, the proper way to be a human being.

淨空法師：對。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes.

主持人：大家都自己想做什麼就做什麼。對於這些年輕人，我們要如何讓他們接近傳統文化，讓他們覺得傳統文化不是那麼嚴肅的一件事情？

Anchor:  We all just do whatever we want.  For many youngsters, how can we make them get closer to traditional culture, to make them feel traditional culture is not so rigid (solemn)?

淨空法師：對、對。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes. That’s right.

主持人：那我們應該怎麼做到這方面的？

Anchor: But how can we accomplish this?

淨空法師：對。我把這個事情跟首相談的時間很長，他有興趣。我說真正有興趣，馬來西亞領導全世界。現在有這些高科技好辦，沒有這些東西，那就一點辦法沒有，束手無策。你有這些工具，如果能夠找三十、五十個老師，開這門課，天天講，不要中斷。國家電視台，拿一個頻道，專門講傳統文化的教育。我相信頂多一年，這個國家就穩定了，什麼問題都沒有了。東西要教，我對這個有信心。我在湯池做了三年的實驗，做成功了，政府還沒支持我們。如果說國家帶頭來做，很容易做成功。所以我說，養五、六十個老師，比養五、六百萬大軍還有效。

V. M. Chin Kung:  Well, I have had a long discussion with the Prime Minister about this matter. He is interested.  I said that if he is really interested [in promoting traditional culture], Malaysia can become the leader in the world.  Thanks to the high-end technology, it is easy [to promote the traditional culture].  Without them, our hands are tied, we can do nothing. With these tools, then we need to find some thirty to fifty teachers who can give lectures on traditional culture everyday, without a break.  Finally, we need a channel in the government-owned television stations to broadcast only these lectures.  I believe, the whole country would be stabilized and harmonious within a year, without any social problems. Traditional education must be taught.  I have strong confidence in it.  Previously, I had conducted a three-year experiment [promoting traditional Chinese culture] in Tangchi (a small town of twenty thousand people in Anhui Province, in the central part of China).  The Tangchi experiment was successful and without any support from the government.  If a government takes the lead, it will be even easier to succeed.  Thus, I have often stated that supporting fifty to sixty such teachers is more effective [in keeping peace] than maintaining an army of five to six million soldiers.

主持人：老師是很重要的。

Ancher: Such teachers are very important.

淨空法師：對，太重要了！老師教學能夠成功，我在湯池這個經驗當中，我曾經告訴他，告訴這些老師們，那是三十七個老師。我說教育成功的，在歷史上，釋迦牟尼佛成功，孔子成功。他為什麼成功的？先行其言。他所說的，他一定自己做到了，他沒有做到的決定不說，學生就肯聽你的，就相信你的。

V. M. Chin Kung: Yes, very important! How can a teacher ensure his teaching’s effectiveness? During the Tangchi experiment, I once told the teachers, thirty-seven teachers then, that historically, educational success was achieved by Buddha Sakyamuni.  He was a successful teacher, so was Confucius. Why were they successful?  It was because they practiced what they preached.  Whatever they had said, they had done so.  They would never teach anything they could not do or had not done yet.  Hence, the students would listen to their teachers and trust them.

如果老師自己不能做到，這個不行。所以首先要求老師自己做到，身教擺在第一。釋迦牟尼佛一生，他真是，每一句話、每一個意思他統統都做到，所以大家對他沒話說，遵從他。一生沒有妄語、沒有兩舌、沒有綺語、沒有惡口。

 If a teacher cannot practice what he teaches, his teachings will have no effect.  So the first and foremost thing is to demand the teachers ’ implementation of their teachings.  Teach by your own example should be the first priority.  Observing Sakyamuni’s whole life, he had truly and completely done all of his teachings to the fullest extent.  As a result, no one doubted his teachings and everyone followed him and obeyed his guidance.  Buddha Sakyamuni never lied, said harsh words, frivolous words, or words that caused dissention in his entire life.

主持人：好，我們謝謝淨空法師為我們在這做的一個開示。一會稍後回來，我們再請淨空法師繼續為我們開示。稍後回來，我們還會繼續由我們的嘉賓來提出他們的疑問，來請我們淨空法師答疑解惑。我們稍後見。

Anchor: Well, we thank V.M. Chin Kung for his inspiring Dharma Talk.  After the break, we will invite Venerable Master to continue his explanation.  When we come back, our gusts will also raise their questions for V.M. Chin Kung to clarify and elucidate.  See you after the break!

(BREAK)

歡迎回來。我們常說，和諧社會從心開始。這一點，每個人都扮演相當重要的角色，但是每個人都覺得很難做到。今天我們就請到淨空法師來到我們節目現場，來告訴我們這個答案。在這之前，我們先請我們今天三位來賓向淨空法師提出疑問。我們先請胡錦昌總編輯。

Welcome back.  It is often said that “A Harmonious World Begins in the Mind.”  From this point of view, we all play an important role [in harmonizing our world], but we all feel that it is very difficult to find inner peace.  Today, we have invited Venerable Master Chin Kung to our program and give us the answer.  Before that, let’s have our guests ask their questions first.  Chief Editor Hu Jingchang, please.

胡錦昌：阿彌陀佛！師父您好。

Hu Jingchang: Amitabha Buddha! Good evening, Master.

淨空法師：好。

V. M. Chin Kung: Good evening.

胡錦昌：師父，我知道有一句話，叫做佛法與世間法是一不是二。師父也在多個地方有表法，譬如講在新加坡，師父就聯合九大宗教，致力這個世界和平、和諧。在圖文巴，澳洲的圖文巴，就讓這個地方走入了聯合國的因緣。中國的湯池推廣《弟子規》，行解並重的因緣。師父在馬來西亞，現在有推行漢學院，又是一個怎麼樣的因緣？

Hu Jingchang: Master, I have heard of a saying that Buddha-Dharma and mundane laws (principles) are one, not two opposite things.  Master has shown us [the non-duality and oneness of all things] in many places.  For example, in Singapore, Master unified nine major religions and is devoted to world peace and harmony.  In Toowoomba, Australia, Master caused conditions for the city to connect with UNESCO.  As for promoting Di Zi Gui, Standards of Being a Good Child and Student, the Tangchi, Experiment demonstrated the equal importance of understanding and practicing the sage’s teachings. Now, Master is in Malaysia and promoting Malaysian Academy of Han Chinese Studies. What is the cause and condition for this Academy in Malaysia?

淨空法師：這個因緣，我很冷靜去思惟，我覺得這是天意，這不是人能夠做得到的。剛才提到我在澳洲，澳洲的緣，實際上最初的緣就在新加坡。

V. M. Chin Kung: As for these causes and conditions, after a prudent consideration, I feel that it is the will of Heaven (Buddhas and Bodhisattvas).  They are not something humans can accomplish. You just mentioned about Australia. The causal condition for me to go to Australia, actually, originated from the time I stayed in Singapore.

1995年在新加坡團結九大宗教，讓這些宗教有密切的往來，就是每個月都能夠在一起聚會，每一個宗教大的活動我們都參加。所以把宗教就變成兄弟姐妹一樣，這當中所有隔閡沒有了。當時，總統是王鼎昌，他非常歡喜，他說過去新加坡有個宗教組織，五十多年來都沒有做到這麼和諧。我們去之後，把它帶動起來了，這個就影響到澳洲。

In 1995, the unification of the nine major religions in Singapore is to allow for an intensive interaction among the nine religions.  In other words, it began with a monthly gathering of the nine religions.  We all attended the big events of every one of the nine religions.  The result was that the entrenched misunderstandings and estrangements disappeared and the followers of the nine religions started to treat each other as brothers and sisters.  At that time, the President was Mr. Teng-Cheong Ong.  He was very happy with the result and commented that it was the first time in five decades to see such harmony among religious organizations in Singapore. We were the catalyst of such religious harmony and its repercussion reached Australia.

我到澳洲去，移民到澳洲，遇到九一一的事件。九一一事件發生之後，第二年，昆士蘭大學校長邀請我，他們學校有個和平學院，邀請我跟這些和平學院的教授舉行一次座談會，討論如何化解衝突，促進社會安定和諧。

Soon after I immigrated to Australia, 911 happened.  The second year after the 911 tragedy, the Principal of Queensland University invited me to have a meeting with the professors of Peace College, one of the colleges of the University, to discuss how to reconcile conflicts and promote peace and harmony in a society.

以前他們用的理念是西方的，西方對付這些恐怖分子，用鎮壓、報復，現在這些恐怖分子演變成恐怖戰爭，就升級了；換一句話，他們用的方法失敗了。所以找我來談談，要用什麼方法，想真正用和平方法，不要用暴力，

Previously, the College adopted the Western ideologies and used suppression and retaliation to try to annihilate these terrorists.  Soon the terrorists’ actions escalated to a war of terror.  Put it in another way, the Western approach has failed.  Therefore, they ask me to find a way to peacefully and truly solve terrorism, rather than using violence.

這個想法是非常正確的。所以我就答應，跟他們參加這個座談會，第二次又參加了兩次座談會。校長覺得我們的理念他能接受，而且是很新的一個理念，其實我們是老的觀念，在他們是很新奇。這是希望我代表學校、代表澳洲參加聯合國的和平會議，就從這麼來的。因為他知道，我們在新加坡做團結宗教做得很成功，他說怎麼做出來的？所以這個原因我們才走向聯合國去的。

This is the right approach, so I agreed to attend the conference.  The second time, I attended two seminars.  The Principal felt that he can accept our approach, which is a brand new concept to him. Actually, our approach is very traditional, but to him it is brand new.  They wished for me, representing the University, to attend the UNESCO Peace Conference.  The causal condition for UNESCO started thus.  Because the Principal knew that we had been very successful in the unification of religions in Singapore and would like to know how we accomplished that.  Because of this, we had an entryway into UNESCO.

走到聯合國，這是大開眼界。本來我們對這世界上事情知道得很少、很渺小，這一接觸才了解，了解到問題真正嚴重。聯合國的使命就是化解衝突，促進社會安定和平。從一九七０年代就召開這種會議，集合全世界學者、精英來討論這個問題。

Our experience with UNESCO opened our eyes wide.  Originally, our knowledge of worldly events was very limited, minuscule.  Our contact with UNESCO made us realize the dire situation of the world.  The mission of UNESCO is to reconcile conflicts and promote the peace and harmony of societies.  Since the 1970s, UNESCO had conducted numerous such conferences with a symposium of worldly scholars and elites to discuss these problems.

我那個時候剛參加，是已經三十年了，那現在就四十多年了。四十多年，社會衝突頻率年年上升，災難一次比一次嚴重，說明這失敗了。每一年花上去人力、財力不計其數，我們看到確實是傷心。

When I first attended, which was 30 years ago, which means UNESCO has been holding such peace forums for more than 40 years now.  For more than 40 years, social conflicts have escalated to such a degree that [man-made] disasters are getting more and more serious.  This means UNESCO’s mission has failed after spending numerous manpower and wealth year after year.  We were deeply saddened by these. 

我們提供就是東方古老的這些理念、方法，給他們大家做報告，大家聽了說好，都喜歡。但是會後，我們在一起吃飯聊天就告訴我：法師，你講得很好，那是理想，做不到。我是這句話給我當頭一棒，我才真正了解危機到底出在什麼地方。出在信心，對古聖先賢沒有信心，對祖宗沒有信心，再對父母沒有信心，對老師沒有信心，這才是今天社會第一個危機。沒有信心，全盤就沒有了，我們遭這麼大的困難，原因在此地。

We provided the traditional Eastern philosophy and methods in our report at UNESCO.  The audience gave us laudation and all were happy.  But after the conference, during a banquet, they told me: “Master, your speech is excellent, it is idealistic but not realistic.”  This comment was a rude awakening.   It made me realize that the true crisis is a lack of faith in [the teachings of] the ancients, the saints and sages.  In other words, the crisis of today’s society is a lack of faith in our ancestors, which leads to a lack of faith in the parents and the teachers.  This is the foremost danger of Today’s society.  Without faith, nothing can be done.  The true cause of the difficulties we have encountered lies here.

科學，懷疑可以，它講究懷疑，懷疑發現問題，再去追蹤，解決問題，這得到答案，聖賢學說不行。它不是物質，它是精神，精神這個入門從哪裡？入門就是真信，絲毫懷疑都不能有，有懷疑就不能成功。所以我碰到這麼一個難題，如何叫這些人重新建立信心，這是大難事。

For science, doubt is allowed.  Scientific studies encourage doubt.  From doubt, questions are asked, theories and experiments are scrutinized, solutions are found, and questions are finally answered.  But this approach cannot be applied to the teachings of sages and saints.  Such teachings are not material but spiritual.  Spiritual quest begins with true faith, and does not allow a single trace of doubt.  With doubt, nothing can be successful.  Thus, I encountered such a difficulty—how to rebuild trust in people—this is a great difficulty.

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Source: http://blog.udn.com/charlie999/7441296

與淨空法師一席談(翻譯)-3

科學 的精神首先就是你拿證據來，我就想到我們得拿證據。所以湯池小鎮是為聯合國辦的，我們做個實驗，實驗成功了，那你就相信了；實驗失敗了，那就傳統文化就應 該丟棄了，過時了。所以我們這個使命就太大了。我交代我們三十七個老師，拼命也要把它做成功，為什麼？我們的使命太大了。成功了，傳統文化可以救世界；做 失敗了，這個東西就作廢了，可以全部丟掉。就在我們這一舉，我們犧牲生命在所不惜，一定把它做好。

To convince people scientifically, we must first show proof.  This is the scientific spirit.  I therefore concluded that we must show proof [that the teachings of the saints and sages can solve social problems].  So the Tangchi Experiment was conducted for UNESCO.  If our implementation of this experiment is successful, people will believe.  If not, the traditional culture should be abandoned, as it is obsolete.  So, we had a grand mission.  I ordered the 37 teachers to accomplish this mission as if their life depends on it.  Why?  Our mission has a significance of such magnitude that if successful, traditional culture can save the world.   If we failed, traditional culture becomes obsolete and should be abandoned completely.  All hinges on this experiment.  We must put our lives on the line.  We must succeed. 

怎麼做？就是先行其言。《弟子規》裡頭總共一百一十三樁事情，要做到。《感應篇》裡面，善惡報應總共一百九十幾條，統統要清清楚楚，記在心上。然後有《十善業》，融合在一起。用《弟子規》的方法成就自己，然後再教人。

So the question is how?  The answer is “action before words.”  I required that all the teachers must be able to perform the 113 actions outlined in Di Zi Gui, to memorize clearly some 190 good and bad karmas delineated in Accounts of Requests and Responses, and to amalgamate them with the Ten Virtuous Karmas Sutra.  In other words, first make oneself a virtuous person through Di Zi Gui, then teach others.

教 人怎麼教？身教。我給他們四個月時間落實，他們很難得，兩個月就做到了。做到之後，下鄉入戶，去表演，把《弟子規》做出來。在農民家裡面，看到老人，就像 父母一樣，我怎樣盡孝道；看到他的兒女，兄弟姐妹，如何友愛。家庭裡面有髒亂的地方，馬上就動手，整理得乾乾淨淨。這樣做了三個星期，地方人民感動。

How to teach others?  Teach by example.  I gave them four months to actualize Di Zi Gui.  They were commendable and were able to accomplish this in two months.  Thereafter, they organized a teaching team and went into villages.  They entered the villagers’ homes and performed filial piety, as dictated inDi Zi Gui, and treated the farmer’s parents as if their own parents.  The teachers treated the farmer’s siblings as if their own siblings and shown fraternal love.  It the household was not clean, they right away started to clean the farmer’s house as if their own homes.  Within a short time, the teachers havewon the hearts of Tangchi residents.

再給他宣布中心開課，大家一起來學習。不到三個月，這個小鎮的人良心發現了，不好意思做壞事了，這教育成功了，出乎意料之外。我們原來是，中國這個傳統東西丟掉兩百年，要再恢復，做出成績出來，至少要兩年到三年，沒有想到三個月就成就。

Then, the Centre of Cultural Education announced classes for the public, both children and adults, to learn together.  Within three months the residents of Tangchi found their conscious and would feel ashamed to do bad deeds.  The traditional education was successful.  To our surprise, originally we thought that the Chinese traditional education, which has been abandoned for over 200 years, would take at least two to three years to restore and to see some effect.  Unexpectedly, it only took three months to see the effect.  

我說這不是人的力量，我們自己不能居功，我有什麼，我能教得好，那這就錯誤的。這是什麼？這是祖宗之德，三寶在暗中加持。人民合作，我們說了他聽，他相信，教他怎麼做他真怎麼做，這樣做成功了。

I opine that it is not human power.  We do not attribute our endeavors as the cause of the success.  We cannot have this misconception that I have done something or that I can teach well.  The success is due to the virtues of our ancestors and the invisible blessings from the Triple Jewels.  It is the joint efforts of the villagers.  We taught, they listened, believed, and did what we taught.  The success was achieved this way.

這一做成功，我們就想到，要到聯合國，是為聯合國造的，這個工作為他們做的，是讓他們對中國傳統文化生起信心。就跟聯合國打交道，這個就很困難，聯合國官僚習氣很深，很不容易。

Once it was successful, we thought of UNESCO, because we conducted this experiment for UNESCO, to let UNESCO have faith in traditional Chinese culture.  Nonetheless, it is very difficult to deal with people in UNESCO.  They have deeply rooted bureaucratic habits.

沒 有想到，兩個月以後，聯合國給我一封信件，邀請我主辦一個活動。就是二００六年十月，紀念釋迦牟尼佛二千五百五十週年，這麼一個活動，主題是「佛教徒對於 人類的貢獻」。這正是我所想的。怎麼它來找我？我懷疑。它找會員國，它怎麼找到我頭上來了？我派了三個人到巴黎打聽，這一打聽是真的。它找的是泰國，泰國 大使推薦我參加主辦單位。你看這不都是祖宗安排的，這不是我們能做得到的，這個安排太好了。

Unexpectedly, two months thereafter, I received a letter from UNESCO, inviting me to attend a conference celebrating the 2550^th Birth Anniversary of the Buddha Sakyamuni in October, 2006.  The topic was to “Discover the Buddhist Contribution to Humanity.”  I had some doubt as to their invitation although it is exactly what I was thinking.  I wondered how UNESCO found me.  I had some doubt as UNESCO usually only invite members.  I sent three people to verify the invitation in Paris.  They discovered that it was the Deputy Ambassador of Bangkok who recommended me to UNESCO.  Isn’t it obvious that this is not something humans can accomplish?  The sequence of events can only be arranged by our ancestors.  Such arrangements are truly amazing, wonderful.

我 說果然是真的，我就接受了。時間只有五個月，五個月做充分準備，來做這一次報告。我做了三天展覽，聯合國給我一個大廳，展覽，我們有圖片、有說明，起很大 的作用。趁這個機會，我把新加坡的九個宗教帶去了；它沒有猶太教，我把澳洲的猶太教找過去，湊十個宗教。在聯合國大會堂手牽手，為世界和平做祈禱，這他們 見所未見、聞所未聞。這一次活動辦得很成功，真正讓這些人受了感動，每一個國家代表大使都希望到湯池去考察，去親自去看看。

Since it is true, I accepted the invitation.  We only had five months to prepare and to make a report of the Tangchi Experiment.  I provided a 3-day presentation and exhibition.  UNESCO gave me a big hall to show our pictures and explanations.  The exhibition had tremendous effects.  Using this opportunity, I brought along with me a delegation of nine religions in Singapore, except Judaism, delegates of Judaism was from Australia.  Altogether, a delegation of ten religions attended with me.  In the general conference hall, the delegates of the ten religions hold hands to pray for world peace, such a scene was never seen or heard of in UNESCO before.  The event was very successful and truly touched the hearts of all the representatives.  All the member countries would like to send representatives to visit Tangchi and study the experiment.

去年五月，我在曼谷參加曼谷辦的一個多元文化活動，他們聽說我到曼谷，就有十七個國家大使到曼谷來看我，非常難得。希望我能在聯合國再辦一次活動，我說上一次有湯池，現在沒有東西給報告。

Last year in May, I attended the Interfaith Forum held in Bangkok.  Ambassadors from seventeen member countries visited me there.  It was a rare occasion.  They wished that I could hold another like event.  I told them that I had the Tangchi experiment last time, but I have nothing to report now. 

就碰到澳洲這一個，他們做示範城市，我說如果這個做成功的話，可以在聯合國去發表，告訴大家，這好事情。說明不同的族群、不同的宗教、不同的信仰、不同的文化，可以生活在一起，像兄弟姐妹一樣，不是做不到的。我們已經做到了，大家看到。所以這是緣起在此地。

Currently, we are trying to build a model city in Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia.   If it is successful, I can give another report at the United Nations, to tell every one this good thing.  It shows that people from different ethnic backgrounds, religions, beliefs, and cultures can live together as brothers and sisters.  It is not impossible.  We have done so and people have seen.  These were the causal conditions [for Singapore, Australia, and Tangchi,].

一 直到這個漢學院。因為湯池解散之後，馬來西亞老師、校長，華校的，大概有五百多人，曾經在湯池學習過，學習的時間都三、四個月，所以對於湯池，他們是非常 贊同。湯池解散，他們就來問我，能不能不解散？我說不可以，佛弟子決定要服從國家的命令，要遵守國家的法律，不可以違背。

Now we come to the Han Academy.  During the Tangchi experiment, there were about 500 people from Malaysia, teachers and Chinese school principals, who have spent three to four months time learning at the Centre in Tangchi.  They totally agree with the spirit (concept) of the Tangchi experiment.  After the dissolution of Tangchi, some of them asked me whether it is possible not to dissolve Tangchi.   I told them: “No, Buddhists must obey the law and order of the country, without any violation.”

中 國歷史上有三武滅法，那些出家、在家的都沒有反抗，我們如果做成反抗的，我們是佛的罪人，我說我不開這個例子。我說叫停就停，叫解散就解散。他說那搬家行 嗎？我說搬到哪裡？他說到馬來西亞來。我說哪有那麼簡單？他們真的就實驗，向教育部去申請、去註冊。沒有想到，兩個星期就批准了，哪有這麼簡單的事情！批 准的這個學校名稱叫「馬來西亞廬江文化教育中心」。

In Chinese history, three kings, all given the name of “Wu,” abolished Buddhism.  During the “Abolishment of Dharma by Three Wus,” none of the Buddhist monks or lay people rebelled against such laws.  If we disobeyed, we will be the sinners of Buddhism.  I cannot allow this exception.   I told them if the government told us to stop, we stop, told us to dissolve, we dissolve.  They asked whether it is all right to move.  I said move to where?  They mentioned Malaysia.  I said how could it be so easy to move there?  Nonetheless, they really took action and applied for the registration of the Han Academy with the Education Bureau.  Incredibly, the permit was given in two weeks.  It was just this simple.  The name of the school on the permit is called “Lujiang Centre of Cultural Education in Malaysia.”

主持人：是，成立了這個教育中心。

Anchor:  Yes, established the Centre of Cultural Education.

淨空法師：所以就成立了這個中心。教育部長跟我一見如故，那天在一起談得很歡喜，會後還有招待會，他請我跟他兩個人一起主持。

V.M. Chin Kung:  Thus, the Centre was established in Malaysia.  I met with the Minister of the Education Bureau and we had an affinity right away, as if we were old friends.  We had a great time chatting that day.  After the meeting, there was a reception and the Minister invited me to host the reception with him together.

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Source: http://blog.udn.com/charlie999/7441302與淨空法師一席談(翻譯)-4

主持人：是。我想淨空法師在這個世界上所做出的一些示範，如果用傳統文化達到這個社會的和諧，我想他給我們一個很好，一種拋磚引玉的一個作用，難怪世界各地都有很多人要向淨空法師來取經。

Anchor:  O.K.  I think V.M. Chin Kung has demonstrated to the world that traditional culture can harmonize a society.  I think he has given us a very good [example]; it has the effect of “throwing a brick to entice a piece of jade.”  No wonder people from all over the world want to learn from the master.

淨空法師：不客氣。

V.M. Chin Kung:  All are welcome.

主持人：稍後回來，我們再繼續請淨空法師為我們開示。我們稍後見。

Anchor:  We will back shortly.  We will bequest V.M. Chin Kung to continue with his explanation. See you shortly.

歡 迎回來。很多人都說心浮氣躁的話，這個社會就會出現很多大災難；大災難一出現，更多人是用以暴制暴的方式來解決，但是這是一個好方法嗎？我們現場就有一位 媒體人，常常在報章上、在媒體上，憂心忡忡的表達了他對社會的一些看法，他就是玉林。我們想請玉林來提出你的一些疑問，由我們淨空法師來做開示。玉林請。

Anchor:  Welcome back.  Many people have commented that disturbed minds and agitated spirits will cause many great catastrophes to happen in the society.  Once disasters occur, more people will use violence to suppress violence.  But is it a good solution?  We have with us today a media person, who has often apprehensively expressed his social observation in newspapers and other media.  That person is Yulin.  We would like to have Yulin to ask his questions for V. M. Chin Kung to elucidate.  Yulin, please.

玉林：延續法師剛才談的教育問題，連佛陀都說眾生難調難馴，我不曉得法師對眾生的這個心愈來愈浮躁，治安愈來愈不好，師父你的看法是什麼？你覺得治亂世用重典，這個適合於現在社會嗎？

Yulin:  To continue with the Master’s talk on the problems of education, even the Buddha had stated that the [minds of] sentient beings are difficult to tame.  I would like to know, with respect to the escalation of the agitation of human minds and social crimes, what is your view on this, Master?  Do you feel the saying “to govern in troublesome times requires heavy punishment” is appropriate for Today’s society?

淨空法師：這是一個很嚴肅的問題，也是非常困難的問題。因為大家把傳統東西丟的時間太久了，不但我們沒有看到，現在連聽都沒聽到過，所以提到傳統非常陌生。這是一個令人很難想像的這樁事情。做，一定要做，做總比不做好。

V.M. Chin Kung:  This is a very serious question and a very difficult problem.   It is caused by our abandonment of the traditional ways.  We have abandoned the traditional ways for such a long time, even people of our generation have not seen them, people nowadays have never even heard of them.  So traditional ways are not something people are familiar with.  This is something beyond our imagination. But we must promote it.  It is much better to do something than not at all.

因 為中國傳統教育，它是從母親懷孕的時候開始教的，叫胎教；紮根教育，它是在出生之後一千天，就是三歲。所以古成語裡頭有所謂「三歲看八十」。到三歲的時 候，他就接受到很好的教育，這不是教他念東西，是父母做出榜樣給他看。所以《弟子規》不是教小孩的，《弟子規》是從前舊的那個傳統家庭，大家庭，從上到 下，每個人都要做到的，那是家庭規矩。

According to Chinese tradition, education of children starts from pregnancy, the so called “embryonic education.”  It is a “Root Education” that continues for one thousand days after the baby is born.  From this [tradition] comes the ancient proverb “how one is at three, how one will be at eighty.” At age three, [traditional] children have already received very good education.  It is not the recitation of books, but a learning from the exemplary conducts of the parents.  Therefore, Di Zi Gui is not just for children, it is a code of conduct for the traditional family in ancient times, for the whole clan, from top to bottom, every member of the clan must follow.  It is family rules.

一個大家庭，三、四百人生活在一起，你沒有規矩不就亂掉了嗎？所以，小孩他從小一出生，他就看到他父親、母親，怎麼樣孝順他的父母，他從這裡學會的，所以說做給他看的。不但是父母做給他看，每個人所作所為他都看到，都是那麼樣的守禮、守規矩。所以這個是根深蒂固。

In a clannish family, three to four hundred people live together.  Without family rules, the clan will be chaotic.  Thus, children, from birth, see how their mother and father perform filial piety to grandparents, and learn from such a paradigm.  So, [parents] act for children to see [and do].  The children not only see how the parents act, but they also see the conducts of all the relatives, [and see that they] all have such good manners, [and] following the rules of the family.  Therefore, the Root Education is deeply instilled [in a child at 3 and will still affect them at age 80].

今 天大家庭沒有了，都是小家庭，小家庭小孩沒有看到父母孝順父母，他怎麼學法？他沒有模樣。你跟他講，他不懂，他要看到才算數，難就難在此地。所以今天最好 的是什麼？孤兒，國家能收養一批孤兒，從孤兒裡面教好教。為什麼？小孩他沒有依靠，他也沒有人寵愛他，那個小孩聽話。我看到慧禮法師在非洲養了三千孤兒， 教得很好，個個《弟子規》《三字經》都能背得滾瓜爛熟的，來表演給我看。我說行，我說非洲這些小黑人，從這麼小的時候，三、四歲開始接受中國傳統文化，將 來非洲人可以統治全世界，會給世界帶來安定和諧。

Today, clannish families disappeared.  We only have nucleus families.  Children in a nucleus family cannot see parents performing filial piety.  How can they learn then?  They have no role model. Children must see in order to grasp the concept.  They would not understand just by your saying so whereas lies the difficulty.  So what is the best way [to start root education] nowadays? [It may be best to start with] orphans.  A country can have an orphanage.  It is much easier to teach them.  Why? Orphans have no one to rely on, no one to pamper them.  They will listen and behave.  I observed this from V.M. Hui Li.  He had raised three thousand orphans in Africa and taught them well.  Every one of them memorized Di Zi Gui and Sutra of Tri-Stanzas.  They performed in front of me, reciting both books without missing a single word.  I believe it can be done.  These African children, accepted traditional Chinese culture at such a young age, 3 or 4 years old.  They will be able to lead the whole world in the future to bring peace and harmony to the World.

今 天，所以我們講，就是要老師，老師自己要真正做到。最好還要有個實驗點，講完之後不相信，你去看。國家有個小區，就是有個小鎮，或者有個小城市，這個城市 的人統統都照這樣做，建立一個新的城市都可以，沒有做到的不要來，做到的我們喜歡，都住在一起。這樣就是他有個榜樣，就像湯池做個樣子，聯合國的人來看， 歡迎來看，我們真做到了，我們不是說的，他才會相信，才能建立信心。所以除了教，在媒體上講解，還要有個實驗點，做出來給大家看，全國人信心起來了。所以 今天把信心救起來就有救了，信心危機比什麼都嚴重。

Today, as we mentioned before, we need teachers, teachers who can really practice what they teach.  It is best that we also have a model city so that people who do not believe us can actually see its realization.  [We only need] a small community in a country, a small town or city, even building a new city where all the townspeople do so.    We welcome all who can perform [Di Zi Gui], but not those who cannot.  All such people live together and set up a model city, like Tangchi.  Representatives from UNESCO can come and all are welcome to see that we truly have done so, that we are not just saying so.  People will then believe and have faith [in traditional culture].  To conclude, besides teaching, lectures in the media and a model city are needed to show people that it can be done so that the whole country will have faith.  Once we have helped people rebuild faith, the world can be saved.  The crisis of lack of faith is more serious [than any catastrophe].

主持人：是，要達到一個讓這社會的信心危機完全解除，的確還有很多很多的步驟。

Anchor:  Yes, to establish a society that is totally without the crisis of lack of faith, indeed, requires many stages.

淨空法師：對。

V.M. Chin Kung:  Yes.

主持人：這一點在社會，對社會觀察非常透析的志峰，在這方面有什麼要向我們大師請教的？

Anchor:  This point, this social phenomenon, Zhifung, an acute social observer and analyst, do you have any questions for our Master on this respect?

藍 志峰：大師您好。其實我們都知道，政治是治理眾人的這個事情，而且法師的足跡也遍布歐洲多個國家，以及亞洲多個國家。其實師父綜合每個國家的治理眾人的制 度都不同，特別是當朝野之間的競爭非常激烈的時候，就會出現很多混亂的，亂相的情況出現。其實人民在當前這種不穩定的情況之下，應該怎麼樣去達到一個明智 的決定，以及如何在治理眾人的這個過程當中，扮演重要的一個角色？

Zhifung Lan:  Greetings, Master.  Actually we all know that politics is a matter of governing people.  Master has travelled many European and Asian countries.  Master has summarized the different political systems of different governments and the competition between the ruling party and the non-ruling parties.  Especially, when such competition becomes very severe, there will be chaos and social upheaval.  How should the people, facing such instability, achieve a wise consensus, and play an important role in the process of political governing?

淨 空法師：對，這個問題是個大問題，不是幾句話能夠解決的。歸根結柢來說，都是教育出了問題。所以我曾經，也是上一次在馬來西亞，跟華校校長們談話的時候， 那一次來了有四百多個校長、老師，我提出了十個教學為先。除了教學之外，沒有第二個辦法。但是教學的時候，一定要把倫理、道德、因果、宗教，統統揉合在一 起。而且心量要大、眼光要遠，我們要全世界的，不分任何族群、任何宗教，它有好的東西我們統統攝取。

V.M. Chin Kung:  Yes.  Your question is a big one and cannot be answered in a few words.  To unravel the tangle, problematic education is still the cause.  I have mentioned, the last time I visited Malaysia, in a meeting with the principals of Chinese school, more than four hundred principals and teachers attended that meeting, I proposed ten (categories/stages of?) “education is the first priority.” Besides education, there is no other solution.  But when teaching, [the curriculum] must amalgamate morals, ethical human relations, the law of cause and effect, and religious education.  In addition, we must have a broad mind and with great vision.  We must be global, without any discrimination of any race or religion, but to integrate all the good things.

藍志峰：現在的情況就是，很多人都把這個目光跟視野放得很短，我們都知道說教育是長遠的。

Zhifung Lan:  The current situation is that the majority of the people have tunnel vision, but we all know that education is for the long-term.

淨空法師：沒錯。

V.M. Chin Kung:  That’s right.

藍志峰：但是如何在這個長遠跟短期的利益當中做出一個平衡，做出一個取捨？

Zhifung Lan:  But how do we find a balance between long-term and short-term goals, to make the right choice?

淨空法師：你看的要遠，但是你做的要從最近的地方做，你才能生效果。所以最有效的方法，就是利用電視。

V.M. Chin Kung:  You must see far [into the future], but to be effective, you have to start right here [with what you have right now].  So the most effective way is to use television.

主持人：就像現在這樣。

Anchor:  Just like right now.

淨空法師：對。電視你能夠說是每天都來教學，每天都跟大家上課，二十四小時不中斷，隨時他都能聽得到。而且這個向全世界播放，不但自己國家人得利益，全世界人都得利益。不教不行。

V.M. Chin Kung:  Yes.  Put it this way, we can use television to educate people, to learn together every day, 24 hours nonstop.  Viewers can hear anywhere at any time.  We need to broadcast to the whole world, so the whole world can benefit, not just for the benefit of one’s own country.  Without educate, all is futile.

譬如說馬哈迪長老，他曾經問我一個問題，就是恐怖分子，人家提到恐怖分子就好像跟回教掛上鉤，他說那是極少數極少數的敗類，搞得我們是頭痛得不得了，他問這個事情怎麼解決。

For example, the Elder Mahathir once asked me a question about terrorists.  Whenever people mention terrorists, they are linked to Muslims.  He commented that they are just a few degenerates [Muslims] but this [stereotype] is very difficult to handle like a migraine headache.  He wants to know how to solve this situation.

我 說這個事情不難解決，如果《古蘭經》你要把它講得清楚、講得明白，你找二、三個講得好的，你在電視上天天廣播，讓大家都懂得《古蘭》，回教徒就不會受那些 極端分子迷惑，被他們利用。被他們利用，就是因為你很虔誠的回教徒，你對於《古蘭》了解得不多，所以他就會用這個空隙來找你，你就被他吸引去了。你對於經 典了解得透徹，對於神的、真主的旨意完全清楚，你怎麼會受他欺騙？這不可能。所以宗教要回歸教育。

I told him that it is not difficult to solve.  I suggested that he must expound the Qur’an clearly, [so that it is] easy to understand.  If you can find two or three who can do so, you can broadcast such sermons everyday on television, so that everyone understands the Qur’an.  Thus, Muslims will not be deluded and exploited by those extremists.  The reason those terrorists can exploit them is because the devout Muslims do not understand the Qur’an.  The terrorists use this schism to coerce them.  Once they fully understand the Qur’an and truly understand the revelation of God, the will of Allah, how could they be deceived?  It is not possible.  Therefore, all religion must return to education. 

宗 教這兩個字，如果用中國文字來解釋，是非常有意義的。中國這個宗有三個意思，主要的、重要的、尊崇的，三個意思；教，教育、教學、教化。連起來，那就是人 類最主要的教育、最重要的教學、最尊崇的教化。這是全世界每一個宗教都願意接受，我跟他們講，好！大家都願意接受。所以宗教要團結，宗教要互相學習，宗教 裡頭的矛盾才全部化解。

“Zong Giou,” [roughly translated as religion,] these two words have great significance in Chinese etymology.  In Chinese, “Zong” has three meanings: major, important, venerable.  Giou means to teach, education, educate and learn, educate and transform.  Combining these meanings, “Zong Giou” means the major education of people, the most important teaching and learning, and the most venerable education and transformation.  This Chinese interpretation of “religion,” explained as such, is accepted willing by every religion in the world.  I said [to the religious leaders] since all are willing to accept this interpretation, all religions must unit and learn from each other; thus, the conflicts among religions can be completely reconciled.

主持人：是，的確是，因為宗教其實也是教育的一種方式。

Anchor:  Yes.  Indeed, yes.  Religion actually is one of the ways of education.

淨空法師：對，好的一種。

V.M. Chin Kung:  That’s right, one of the best.

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Source: http://blog.udn.com/charlie999/7441312
與淨空法師一席談(翻譯)-5

主持人：淨化人心，或者是讓每個人都有一個信仰，不至於成為社會的一個浮萍，不容易飄動。稍後回來，我們請我們的淨空法師再為我們開示，我們稍後見。

Anchor:  To purify the mind; or to let everyone have a faith, no longer duckweeds of society, and not so easily swayed.  When we come back, we will continue to ask V.M. Chin Kung to enlighten us.  See you later.

主 持人：歡迎回來。老一輩的人常常說，我們年輕人身在福中不知福。因為我們的社會，現在物質生活是非常富足的，但是卻有很多年輕人，選擇用消極的態度來面對 這個世界，同時也放棄自己。那在我們的，常常媒體上可以看得到，有很多年輕人放棄自己的生命。到底為什麼會這麼做，我想胡錦昌總編輯應該會非常有感同身 受，這一點。

Anchor:  Welcome back.  The old generation often commented that we young people live a blessed life without appreciating our good fortune.  Although we live in a society, nowadays, that is materialistic enriched, but many young people choose to face the world with a negative attitude, as well as abandoning their lives.  We have often seen, reported in the media, such youngster commit suicide.  Why would they do this?  I think this should strike a chord in Mr. Jingchang Hu, Chief Editor of Kwong Wah Daily, on this point.

胡 錦昌：阿彌陀佛，師父你好。師父有講過一句話，就是「學為人師，行為世範」。但是我就向師父報告一下，馬來西亞的這些年輕人，就是很容易輕生。譬如講，有 一個年輕人，他就叫做馬塞迪，去跳樓。過了不久，又有一個年輕人，他駕了一輛寶馬去大橋，去跳海自殺，這樣的情景。還有一個事情，就是一個十多歲，好像不 到十六歲的小孩子，他也輕生。這些新聞都是屢見不鮮。當然做為媒體，我們都不去渲染這些新聞。不過我們就不懂，為什麼現在的年輕人，少年，就這樣想不開， 就想去尋死？

Jingchang Hu:  Amitabha Buddha, greetings, Master.  The Master has mentioned the motto “learning to be an erudite teacher, acting to be a role model.”  But I must report to the Master, in Malaysia, many youngsters commit suicide recklessly.  For example, there was a young man, his name is 馬塞迪, he jumped off a building.  Soon thereafter, another youngster, driving a BMW, drove off a bridge, into the ocean, to kill himself.  Another example was a teenager, no more than 16 years old, he also committed suicide.  Such news is so numerous and commonplace.  Of course, as a media person, we try not to exaggerate such news.  But we are very puzzled and do not understand today’s young people, teenagers.  What bothers them so much that they want to die?

淨 空法師：這是一個嚴重的社會問題。不但年輕人，我還聽到在國外有一些，連小學生都自殺。再一個老年人，住在老人院裡頭，輕生的很多。這個問題從哪裡來的？ 他活在這個人間，得不到溫暖。年輕人沒有得到父母之愛。在現在的社會，父母忙著自己工作，小孩都交給佣人去養。佣人偷懶，把他擺在電視機面前，叫他看電 視，乖乖的。所以，這都是製造問題真正的起因。父母顧慮到自己的事業，把自己下一代放棄掉了，這是絕大的一個錯誤。

V.M. Chin Kung:  This is a serious social problem.  It does not just happen to teenagers, I have heard that in the West, even elementary school students commit suicide. This syndrome also applies to the elderly.  The elderly who lived in nursing homes often commits suicide.  What caused this syndrome?  They are people who live in this world but do not feel any kindness, any warmth from people around them.  Youngsters do not feel any loving care from their parents.  In Today’s society, parents are busy with their careers and give the caring of their children to the maids.  The maids are lazy and put the children in front of the television so the children would not be bothersome.  This is the true cause that created such syndrome.  Parents are only concerned about their jobs and neglected the next generation.  This is a mistake of great magnitude.

在 中國古時候社會不是這樣的。有些人講，中國婦女，古時候在社會上沒有地位，那是錯誤的。你真正讀古書你就曉得，五倫裡頭「夫婦有別」，別是不同的任務。夫 妻兩個組成一個家庭，各有不同的任務，都要把它做到。男子主外，大概負責經濟上，這一樁男子去做；女人的責任更重，除相夫之外，她教子。家裡有沒有下一 代，有沒有聖賢人出來，都靠母親。

This is not the Way of the ancient Chinese society.  Some people have commented that Chinese females had no social status in the ancient society.  That is a mistaken view.  If you really studied the ancient texts, you will understand that “differences in a couple,” one of the five ethical human relationships, means different responsibilities of the married couple.  A family is made up of the wife and the husband, each has a different duty he and she must accomplish.  The husband’s major role is to work outside the family, mainly responsible for the financial side of the family, and this should be done by the man [in the old days].  The wife’s role is even more important.  Besides helping the husband, she must teach the children.  Whether the family has the next generation [to continue the line], or whether there will be sages and saints in the next generation, all depends on the mother.  

因 為母親是孩子第一代的老師，三歲之前那個紮根教育是由她來做的，她要不把這個根紮好，你家裡後代沒有人了；她要能真正把責任做到，這個小孩是聖人、是賢 人。所以，母親的偉大，你看，母親被稱為太太，太太什麼意思？文王的祖母太姜，母親太任，自己的夫人叫太姒，生下來的小孩都是大聖人。聖人的母親叫太太， 太太從這麼來的，那是多麼尊重的一個稱呼。稱太太是什麼？聖賢的母親。

Because mother is the first teacher of a child, before three, the “Root Education” is taught by her.  If she fails in the “Root Education,” the next generation is ruined.  If she performs this duty well, her children will become saints and sages.  So, mothers are great. You see, a mother is also called “Tai Tai.”  What is the meaning of “Tai Tai?”  The grandmother of King Wen (a historical king regarded as a saint in the Golden Age of China) was called Tai Jiang, his mother was called Tai Ren, and his wife was called Tai Si.  All three mothers gave births to saints.  Thus the mother of saints is called “Tai Tai.”  This is the origin of “Tai Tai.”  What a respectful title!  When a female is called “Tai Tai,” she is respected as the mother of saints.  

所以這個事情是父母沒盡到責任，特別是母親。所以母愛比什麼都重要，對於小孩的心情有很大的影響。常常父母不管他的話，他心裡會起變態，所以才會有這些事情發生。老人也是如此，兒女不孝，把老人送到老人院去，就不再理會了，他心裡多難過，活著不如死。

To conclude, this syndrom is caused by parents not fulfilling their responsibility, especially the mother.  Motherly love is more important than anything else [in the world].  It has a great effect on the child’s emotions.  If parents are neglectful, the child will become mentally disturbed, resulting in such things to happen.  The same applies to the elderly, if children are not filial and put their parents in nursing homes, and abandoned them; they are very depressed [saddened], and prefer to die than to live [in such a bleak condition].

主持人：是。

Anchor:  Yes.

淨空法師：他會想這些問題。

V.M. Chin Kung:  He will think about these questions.

藍志峰：可是師父，不關心會導致他空虛，可是太關心，他又覺得是種壓力。父母之間應該怎麼拿捏？

Zhifung Lan:  But, Master, neglect will cause them to feel hallow inside, but too much care will make them feel pressured.  How should the parents find the balance?

淨 空法師：對，所以父母也得要學，不學不行，還是得學聖賢教育。真正是宗教信徒的話就好很多，他對於宗教經典常常聽、常常學習，那就不一樣。所以不學不行， 沒人教他。所以國家真的需要一個這樣的電視台，專門教這些教育，讓大家統統一起來學。這個功德就無量無邊，不知道救多少人。

V.M. Chin Kung:  You are right.  So parents must also learn, learn from the teachings of the saints and sages, without learning, nothing works.  The situation is better for [parents who are] the true disciples of a religion.  Such disciples will constantly listen and study the religious cannons.  It will make a difference.  So, the last resort is still learning [from the sages], and teaching, everything else is futile.  Consequently, a country really needs such a public station to broadcast exclusively such kind of education, to allow everyone to learn together.  This will generate limitless, infinite virtues and merits, and saving countless people.

藍 志峰：法師，很多社會都會有一種情況，就是父母親認為把教育孩子的責任交給學校，就由學校的老師來教。可是學校的老師就認為說，我教你孩子，我教學生的這 個工作是有時間限，譬如說九點到七點，之後我就拍拍手，就不是我的工作，孩子是父母親應該教的。所以就有這種情況，就是父母親把孩子交給學校，然後學校老 師又認為說，父母親也應該扮演重要的角色，雙方都有不同的說法。

Zhifung Lan:  Master, many societies have a mindset whereas parents delegate the responsibility of education to the school, that it is the teacher’s duty to educate their children.  However, the school teacher believes that it is my job to teach your child, but my working hours are, for example, from 9 AM to 7 PM.  In other words, after working hours, my job is done, it is no longer my job, the parents should be responsible for the education of children.  Under this scenario, parents think children’s education is the school’s responsibility, and school teacher believes that parents should play a more important role in this.  Both sides have different views.

淨空法師：所以雙方都不要孩子，可憐的是孩子，孩子真可憐！

V.M. Chin Kung:  So both sides abandoned the children, such children are to be lamented, such pitiful children!  

藍志峰：他的那種空虛感，以及抗壓性非常的低。

Zhifung Lan:  They feel empty inside and have a low tolerance to pressure.

淨空法師：對，所以父母沒有盡到父母的責任。這是真的，這不是假的。說實在話，我們中國從前是大家庭，我主張是大家庭比小家庭好。小家庭自由，大家庭不自由，但是一想到育幼養老，你就喜歡大家庭了。

V.M. Chin Kung:  That’s right.  Parents have not done their duty.  This is true, not assumptions.  My opinion is that the clannish family in old China is better than the nucleus family.  Nucleus family may have more freedom, whereas clannish family does not, but when we think about rearing the young and caring for the old, we will prefer the clannish family.

所以中國過去大家庭是負責育幼，負責教育，教育不是國家負責的，是家庭。所以私塾是家庭子弟學校，因為他兄弟他不分家的，五代同堂，這樣的家。像《紅樓夢》就是一個家庭，三、四百人在一起生活，他是社會行為。

In old China the clannish family is responsible for nurturing the young, for their education.  Education of youngsters are not the responsibility of the country, it is the family’s.  So private tutoring was the school for the children of the clan.  The siblings live together, without separate households, and such family can have five generations living together.  For example, the family described in A Red Chamber Dream, had three to four hundred people living together, the family became a small community.  

所以家有家道、有家學、有家規，像《弟子規》是共同的家規。除了共同家規之外，自己家裡還有特別的家規，屬於他一家。因為他學習的東西不一樣，他從事生產事業不相同，所以他還有他的規矩。這一百一十三，這是共同的，必須要守的，不管是哪個家庭，都要遵守的。

To conclude, the clannish family had its family ways, it had a family school and family rules, such as Di Zi Gui , which was a common family rule [for all members of the clan]. Besides Di Zi Gui, individual families [in the clan] had their own family rules because they learned different things, participated in different trades, so they had individualized family rules.  But the 113 [rules of conduct in Di Zi Gui] was common for all and must be obeyed by all, no matter which family, all must follow.  

所以它有家業、有家風，世世代代相傳。讀書是你家裡管的，你讀得好，參加考試，縣考秀才，省考舉人，國家皇上親自做主考，進士，這就取得什麼？今天所講的學位，有這個學位可以從政，它是這麼來的。

So a clan has its own business and family tradition, which were passed along generation after generation.  Educating the young is the duty of the family.  A youngster who had good grades could participate in examination held by the county.  Once he passed the examination, he would have the equivalent of today’s bachelor degree.  If he passed the examination held by the province, he would have the equivalent of today’s master degree.  Finally, he would attend the examination held by the emperor, and if he passed, he would be given the equivalent of a doctorate degree.  The purpose of all these levels of examinations, what we call degrees today, was to choose government officials.

藍志峰：可是師父，同樣的一個父母，同樣的家庭，可是教出的孩子也是性格會異，那是怎麼一回事？

Zhifung Lan:   But, Master, children from same parents and growing up in the same family can have totally different personalities.  Why is this?

淨空法師：那都是教育上理念跟方法有問題。

V.M. Chin Kung:  This symptom is caused by the problematic methods and ideologies of education.  

藍志峰：可是你是同樣的父母、同樣的家庭。可是有些可以成材，有些不能成材，是各人的慧根問題嗎？

Zhifung Lan:  But why is it children from same parents and growing up in the same family, some can be outstanding, but others are just common?  Is the difference caused by individual intelligence?

淨空法師：那個與前世都有關係。小孩到他投胎，到他家裡來，有報恩的、有報怨的、有討債的、有還債的，那個事情麻煩就大了。

V.M. Chin Kung:  That has to do with past lives.  A child enters into the fetus and born into a family has different purposes; some joins the family to repay a kindness or to take revenge, some to collect a debt or to repay a debt.  This will cause great trouble [in the family if the child comes to take revenge].  

主 持人：是，我們的確是希望說，我們的小孩，每個小孩都是來報恩。教育對我們社會是非常重要的。我想在今天大師的開示當中能夠看得出，在大師的身體力行，讓 我們看到一個和諧社會是可能發生的。今天大師的開示，也讓我們在庸庸擾擾的社會當中找到了站穩腳步的力量。希望大家在今天節目當中，能夠得到一些啟發。我 們今天節目就到這裡結束，祝你有一個愉快的晚上，再會。

            Anchor:  Yes, indeed, we hope that all our children have come to our family to repay a kindness.  Education is very important in our society.  From the explanations given by the Master today, we can see that the Master practices what he preaches.  He let us see the possibility of a harmonious society.  In today’s Dharma Talk, we find a strong foothold in a society of trials and tribulations.  I hope that everyone can find some enlightenment in today’s program.  On this note, we will end our show today. Wish you all a happy evening. Good-bye

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